Leo [00:00:10]:
You know, one of the side effects of having the cameras on is that I can't fool you by, by running an Eleven Labs simulation of my voice. Oh. They haven't they haven't gotten the synchronization to the mouth part just quite right yet. Right?

Gary [00:00:24]:
Yeah.

Leo [00:00:24]:
We it's it's kinda funny. I keep wanting it though because I know that there have been examples of, I don't know if it's YouTube or maybe some of the other providers that are actually doing, foreign language dubbing

Gary [00:00:40]:
Oh, yeah.

Leo [00:00:41]:
In such a way that the lips, the mouth actually matches

Gary [00:00:46]:
Mhmm.

Leo [00:00:47]:
The language that's being heard rather than the language the actor was originally speak. Anyway, I want that. Once we get that

Gary [00:00:54]:
It's great stuff. I've seen it. I haven't seen, like, not so much the lips doing it, but the the matte like the, inflection on the words.

Leo [00:01:04]:
That too.

Gary [00:01:05]:
No. And and the voice. So it it translates it, but the voice still sounds like you.

Leo [00:01:09]:
Right.

Gary [00:01:10]:
And if you get excited about a particular thing or emphasize a particular thing, that's emphasized in Spanish or French or whatever it's translating it to. And it really even though I think it works better than lip syncing. It's like, okay. Obviously, I'm not speaking that language, but it just seems a lot better than, like, dubbing which is in the past, the actors have just done their own thing when they're dubbing and not trying to batch that. Anyway, it's it's fun stuff and

Leo [00:01:33]:
then I'll As soon as it happens for video, then we won't be able to trust anything and we're done.

Gary [00:01:39]:
Yeah. But then I'll be able to do videos in Spanish and German and

Leo [00:01:42]:
There you go.

Gary [00:01:43]:
Hindi and everything. So

Leo [00:01:45]:
Anyway, so what's on your mind this week?

Gary [00:01:47]:
Well, there's a bunch of things. The, there's an article, that I I thought was interesting, but maybe not for the same reason that everybody else thinks is interesting. Four zero four Media had, an article, and I think it was picked up by other news, things. I think Wired picked it up as well, called This College Protester Isn't Real. It's an AI Powered Undercover Bot for Cops. So basically, it's about a company that creates, that has these bots that police can use to do things like, stop trafficking and drugs, you know, coming into the country and all that stuff. And then what they do is they could sick it on people that they suspect of these crimes. So somebody's got, like, you know, a WhatsApp account or whatever.

Gary [00:02:34]:
And then you can say, okay, bot, go after them. And the bot will work to kind of chat with them Right. Over time and eventually maybe get them to give up information about, like, that they're doing these crimes and all that stuff. And the idea it's sold on the idea of you could just basically point it at somebody's account and say, go go get them.

Leo [00:02:56]:
Get them.

Gary [00:02:56]:
You know?

Leo [00:02:57]:
Suck

Gary [00:02:57]:
them. Yeah. And and it's interesting. And, of course, the scary thing, the thing that the headline I think really tries to push at is like the idea that law enforcement, you know, the cops are using bots to go after people. Like the whole, like, entrapment thing. Like, you're the next person that just befriends you on some site could actually be a bot trying to make you admit that you're doing something wrong or whatever.

Leo [00:03:21]:
So To be fair, we've been approached by bots for years. They're just being used by the other side of the coin.

Gary [00:03:28]:
Exactly. And they're usually very, yeah. Well, the other side of the coin, though, they're already the bad guys are already the bad guys. Yeah. The cops are supposed to be the good guys. So the cops do something that sounds like it's out of, like, George Orwell, we all get a little freaked out saying, oh, they're trying to, you know, do this stuff. That's bad guy behavior trying to trick normal law abiding citizens into admitting something. And it's and it's weird.

Gary [00:03:55]:
It feels invasive. It feels

Leo [00:03:56]:
Well, so

Gary [00:03:57]:
it feels black mirror like The

Leo [00:03:59]:
counterargument is that they're not trying to trick law abiding citizens. They're trying to trick criminals into admitting that they're criminals.

Gary [00:04:11]:
Right. And, but they don't know that they're criminals for sure yet. If they did, they wouldn't need this.

Leo [00:04:15]:
Yeah.

Gary [00:04:16]:
Right? They don't have the evidence. They and even if even if, say, at this point, it's only been used for people where it's like, we know. We we have some evidence, but just not enough. Right? That these people are doing this. The the implication is that, well, eventually, they'll overstep that if they haven't already And just say, hey, what the hey. Just let's go ahead and just stick it on these random kids.

Leo [00:04:42]:
Right.

Gary [00:04:42]:
One of them probably is up to no good, and we'll all make them feel like they've got new friends, and maybe one of them will be up to no good. And we were able to, notch one on the chalkboard there getting another bad guy without actually doing any police work. Right? And and that's the feel that's, I guess, the feeling, the eerie feeling that the headline gives that most of the article gives about it. What I found interesting is, two piece of information. The first piece of information is apparently the company has done this and the, police, outfits that have used them have so far netted zero criminals. So it has not actually been successful in getting anybody.

Leo [00:05:24]:
Do you know how long it's been in operation?

Gary [00:05:27]:
It mentions some of the trials going back to 2023.

Leo [00:05:30]:
Woah. Okay.

Gary [00:05:31]:
K. So so so far, it is not like, oh, we unleashed this thing, and now hundreds of bad guys are behind bars. So, like, no. Nobody. The second thing is the numbers being thrown around, which I suspect is definitely what not a lot of people are paying attention to. The numbers, there's one company that says 2023 is they spent $10,000 on this. Another, time, it was $360,000 contract, and there's another mention of a $500,000 contract. Now this is software.

Gary [00:06:05]:
I mean, it's AI. It's chatbot AI, but it's software. The funny thing is is I think of software, it's like, if my main job is to maintain servers, like, I spend my whole day just maintaining servers, website development. I have a bunch of clients. Chances are I'm probably using a $40, like, FTP app. And I see the $40 app, and I'm like, yeah. $40 that you know, fine. $40 a a month or a year? Fine.

Gary [00:06:31]:
If it's a hundred dollar software, I'm like, oh, that must be really high quality FTP software. Fine. But I'm not dealing with $10,000 or $360,000. Right? So that's a lot. Even if you're, like, a graphic artist or you have a a shop with 10 graphic artists in it and you're paying $600 a year per seat for all of Adobe's apps, you're still at a whole level of magnitude less than $360,000. Right? So expensive software. And you think about how wait a minute. $500,000 contract.

Gary [00:07:06]:
Couldn't they just hire, like, eight trained police officers, live real people that could actually, like, set this up in the police department and work towards, stopping these crimes.

Leo [00:07:21]:
Like, you

Gary [00:07:22]:
know, not not get like, actually, really chat with people if that's what they're doing. Actually, really go out into the field and do things instead of basically this being just the first step. Right? Because the what you want is the chatbot to return a, hey. We got this person saying this on chat. So now with that information, go get them.

Leo [00:07:41]:
Right. Yeah. Yeah. You need to turn a human loose on them at at some point. The only quibble I have, of course, is that, 500,000 is not eight people.

Gary [00:07:50]:
Maybe. Yeah. Fine.

Leo [00:07:51]:
At best at best, four.

Gary [00:07:52]:
Okay.

Leo [00:07:53]:
And I say that just because, you know, cops get paid. Yeah. But there's also the there's also all the the other expenses associated with hiring people. Sure. Be it taxes and pensions and and bonuses and, you know, all that kind of stuff. So but still, yes. Four people could do that job. It would be interesting.

Leo [00:08:11]:
I

Gary [00:08:12]:
I know. It's just so I just I just thought it was kind of interesting. And I've seen this kind of discrepancy in pricing before when it comes to, like, new and exciting things. Like, I for years and years and years, you know, I've been doing courses. And if I go back, like, ten years ago, I was doing courses and I had, like I decided to have a free one, and I made it my security course. It was like 20 videos, and I said, this one will be free. So I have one free course that people can take and see what my courses are like. And but if I did charge for it, it would be like 20 or $30 for the, you know, the course.

Gary [00:08:49]:
Then I saw a headline one day that a company that does security education had been bought for millions of dollars. Right. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And I read the description of what the company did and I said, oh, they just had an online course like mine. I mean, was it better than mine? Maybe they had some cooler graphics. Maybe they had, you know, something a little extra, but I don't think it was, like, a level of magnitude better than my free or probably 20 or $30 course. What's probably

Leo [00:09:21]:
probably interesting is that they probably had what's the right word? Personalities. They probably hired recognizable presenters.

Gary [00:09:31]:
I'm a person.

Leo [00:09:32]:
Maybe even I well, you are within your scope, of course. Yeah.

Gary [00:09:36]:
You

Leo [00:09:36]:
know, the the same thing if you've got somebody maybe who's a, someone who works in this industry deeply, you know, specifically security only, doing the doing the presentation or presenting the course. But you might, though. I'm sure it's I'm sure it's the same content. Right?

Gary [00:09:55]:
It's positioning. That's right. It it it it's framing. It's like, if you say we're gonna start this company, it's gonna have this name. It's we're gonna have investors. Right? We're gonna have some name like a SoftBank or some virtual, you know, VC company is gonna be back there in the list. Right? And we're going to, do a two years of development, and we're gonna create this thing. And we're gonna have marketing people, salespeople go out to corporations and sell this as a package.

Gary [00:10:20]:
Oh, your thousand employees can get this training for this amount, and you just position it the right way. And suddenly, you're talking about, like, 5 figures in terms of your sales package and then the company valuation of millions. But the content's kind of the same, and it's, like, kind of the same thing here. It's like you could probably have, like, like, two guys saying, we could set up chatbots to to, like, try to help police, and they could probably do it and sell, like, a $200 software package that that police can get. But then if you frame it differently, suddenly, it's, like, $500,000.

Leo [00:10:56]:
It's funny because, you know, when you think about it, the everything else being absolutely identical Mhmm. The police would be more likely to trust

Gary [00:11:08]:
Yeah. Or

Leo [00:11:08]:
think of the expensive one as being legitimate, whereas that $200 version is probably just a couple guys in a garage. That can't be real. Even though it's exactly the same thing.

Gary [00:11:19]:
Yeah. Yep. I mean, it's framing. I mean, that's the same thing with, like, a oh, a a $10,000 package to train our employees to not be, you know, susceptible to phishing attacks.

Leo [00:11:30]:
Right.

Gary [00:11:30]:
I want that, not the $30 course, you know, that kind of thing. Or or just, like, the free YouTube videos that I could we could just point the employees to to tell

Leo [00:11:41]:
You and I get that all the time, though. Right? I mean, when we sell patronage or when we sell courses or when we sell anything, one of the pieces of feedback we get is, why would I wanna buy this from you when I can get it on YouTube for free?

Gary [00:11:55]:
Yeah.

Leo [00:11:56]:
And, you know, yes, we got value add yada yada, but the point is that everybody's comparing to all the the body of work that's out there already for free.

Gary [00:12:03]:
Yeah.

Leo [00:12:03]:
And it's associated quality.

Gary [00:12:06]:
Yep. Yeah. So it's it's just interesting. I I I think I think we're at the point of AI now where there is a lot of this going on of positioning, selling, not this is for police and stuff, but I could see I could see companies being like, you know, oh, we have a a a an AI that could predict the stock market slightly more accurately than enough you know, than human analysts. And it's going to cost, you know, a hundred thousand dollars to have access to it, whereas all it really is is a really complex chat g p t prompt, you know, that you could just do on your own with a $20 a month, you know, chat g p t package. But it it happens with new technology all the time, and we're we're at that point.

Leo [00:12:52]:
It's funny. So when I saw the note in the, in our show notes, I immediately thought of the episode of Leverage Redemption Mhmm. On a TV show that I've we we just released their third or fourth season. I'm not even sure anymore. And we've been working our way through the episodes. Are you? Yep. So this the second episode included, basically.

Gary [00:13:13]:
The second episode last night. Perfect timing.

Leo [00:13:16]:
Yes. The the they introduced this concept of being able to completely fake someone, by using AI to, you know, present the image of translate or curve, you know, translate the voice of and basically fool somebody entirely online. Not a bot in this case. It was an actor, you know, going through the motions, but it was an intent an attempt to fool somebody then to believing they were talking to, not just somebody that they didn't realize they weren't talking to, but somebody that didn't actually exist. It was a supposedly an amalgamation of an an average, if you will, of, a bunch of people. But I just thought it was interesting that that same concept of, undercover bot, undercover AI, being used to fool other people. Now in this case, hilarity ensues when the person needs to turn up in person, but that's, you know, that's part of the episode, not necessarily my point. Anyway, just thought that was kind of coincidentally funny.

Leo [00:14:18]:
Yep. I enjoyed that show too.

Gary [00:14:20]:
Oh, yeah. No. Definitely. Glad to see it back. I'm a little worried now that, because as we previously mentioned on the show, Noah Wylie now has a another hit on his hands.

Leo [00:14:31]:
Yeah. He's a busy guy.

Gary [00:14:32]:
So now I'm afraid that it's like, oh, no. Will Leftridge Redemption survive that? Like like, is he going to be now so you know, return to a list and and and now I'll not be able to do and, you know, and then they'll actually have two a list actors that are having would have trouble fitting it into their schedule. But You

Leo [00:14:51]:
know what? The thing is that I believe that this season of, leverage was recorded actually some time ago.

Gary [00:14:58]:
Yeah. No. I I think so.

Leo [00:15:00]:
Now. So anyway.

Gary [00:15:01]:
I think, yeah. So I think it was before Noah Wylie knew he was going to be a a popular TV doctor once again.

Leo [00:15:09]:
So question, are software engineers doomed?

Gary [00:15:15]:
I hope not. I don't think so.

Leo [00:15:17]:
It's an interesting question because I think it applies to a lot of different jobs, a lot of different careers, a lot of different skill sets. And the article or I'm sorry, the video that I ended up pointing to here is OpenAI's Sarah Fryer talking about what they're calling agentic software engineers. So basically, the model is that you give this AI agent a description of what it is you wanted to create. It goes off and creates it. It writes the software to create the app or do the whatever the thing is you're you're asking it to do. And I think a lot of people are concerned about that. I know that I have used god. I can't remember if it was Claude or ChatGPT, to write me some code.

Leo [00:16:05]:
I was, you know, wanting to bulk process some of the, of my articles, my Ask Leo articles, and I just had it write me some Python code that would fetch things from the database and do things to them. And and it was actually quite quite useful, quite interesting. But I think the question is kind of the wrong question to be asking. Industries and jobs are going to change because of AI. I don't think there's a question about that. And certainly software engineering is apparently on the leading edge of that, in part because I think a lot of the AI companies will have a lot of software engineers to compare against, but they also have a good model of exactly what that job is supposed to be, and they focus training their AIs on doing that job. However, one of the things I've discovered using AI is that I need to do a way better job of describing the problem I'm trying to solve. And I think that that, more than anything else, is is going to be one of the one of the ways that jobs change.

Leo [00:17:24]:
People that are able to more clearly and completely articulate a problem and or a proposed solution are the ones who will benefit from all of this. If you're just somebody who takes a job, you know, a description of a job and turns it into code, well, heck, that's something that you and I have faced, you know, for years is that especially back in my Microsoft days, there were always people telling you what the solution should be, and they were always wrong. They were always fuzzy. They were always off the edge, and you had real problems sometimes coming up with a product that they had intended to describe or that would actually work in whatever environment they were pushing it at. I think this that same skill set change that is one of the things that's gonna be driven here in, you know, with AI's taking over some jobs is it moves the, the the importance of what it is you're doing up a level, if you will. You know, your ability to describe your problem, is and the problem, of course, is that a lot of people can't do that. A lot of people have a very difficult time transforming a fuzzy idea that they have in their head into words that, well, anybody, be it human or AI, could then turn into a real product. So, anyway, I just thought that was kind of interesting that software engineers being doomed is kind of pointless.

Leo [00:18:44]:
It's how does software engineering and software creation change when you add AI into the mix?

Gary [00:18:53]:
Yeah. Like what you said about people can't, you know, have a hard time describing what they want. A lot of people can't even describe what they want when searching for something on Google. You know? It's so common. And, I have done a lot of programming using, AI chatbots as my assistant. And it's never been the case where I've been just able to ask it to make something for me. Like, you see a lot of exaggerated articles or claims where it's like, you can just describe the website you want and it builds the website for you. Right.

Gary [00:19:29]:
It's like, no. No. Not really. You have to work with it. Yep. Right? And, it's and and also there's a big difference between demo website and real one. Like, if you want a demo website, it can actually get pretty far along. But if you want the real thing, right, there's content to be made, there's tweaking, there's all sorts of stuff.

Gary [00:19:48]:
I've asked it to, assist me. I find that I can't just say, well, you know, here's what I want. Here's the description. Give me the code. Done. Like, it's usually, I start working on the code. But then when I get to a point where I know, you know, ChatGPT could do it better, like, I want a regular expression that will just get me this text out of the string. Right.

Gary [00:20:13]:
Right? It's like, oh, this will take me five minutes or ten seconds to just ask ChatTPT. I can even just feed it the example. I've got this. I want a regular expression that gives me that and it will give it to me and now I've gotten I've gotten past that line. So I I use ChatGPT as a tool to get some of the more monotonous things out of the way, but it's not being creative. It's not going and saying, oh, here's interesting. Now that you've got this, you know, it would be really cool if you also did this for the user. It's like that's me doing that.

Gary [00:20:44]:
I'm just asking chat g p t for some of the little building blocks. And often it doesn't get me the right answer. Like, it'll get me something that doesn't work or something that works, but it's not quite right. And I have to go back and forth with it just the kind of right if there was, like, an intern, you know, that was doing the work for me.

Leo [00:21:02]:
With though is it not getting it or you realizing that you haven't completely specified the problem?

Gary [00:21:11]:
Yeah. It's it's a it's a combination of those. Definitely, sometimes though, it is it not getting it. My definition's been fine, and all I need to do is I look at it and I was and I could think, oh, yeah. This isn't this isn't working at all. Before I go any further, just tell it that doesn't work.

Leo [00:21:31]:
Right.

Gary [00:21:32]:
Like, that's it. And it'll respond with something like, let me think. I'll bet that it is it it ChatGPG actually does this now. It's like, I'll bet it's because something like, you know, the version of Python or whatever is that. And it try this, and it gives me a new bit of code. I I'm like, oh, yeah. That's gonna work. That was what I was looking for in the first place.

Gary [00:21:54]:
And so my original description was not amended any more than just saying that didn't work, and it just looked at the most obvious thing that could be getting in the way and produced an alternative version that did work. So it it it's it's interesting and it's definitely sped things up. It's made things more possible, but it would not have allowed a different person other than me to actually have done the same thing. Like, it needed to be me with the idea, with knowing what I wanted, and with working with it to actually end up with the result. I was the I was the real coder there. I just had an assistant that was doing some menial work for me to help

Leo [00:22:30]:
Obviously, the the, you know, OpenAI Sarah Friar, she's talking about what they're planning or what they're promising.

Gary [00:22:35]:
Oh, yeah.

Leo [00:22:35]:
Yeah. Typical salesy type stuff. And to be fair, yes, it's early, and they always promise more than they can deliver today. But give it enough time, and they're definitely going to be making progress in that direction. What it dawned on me is that I'm talking about, you know, okay, the the where we where humans will need to get better is at describing the problem. That's called prompt engineering these days.

Gary [00:23:00]:
Prompt engineering.

Leo [00:23:01]:
Yeah. And that is exactly where I think a lot of people who are interested in AI or who are interested in staying in the field where they're concerned about AI encroaching, is where they might wanna consider spending a little bit of time becoming more familiar with.

Gary [00:23:19]:
Yeah. And also consider the fact that a lot of the things that, AI is gonna be good at coding or the things that coders don't wanna do. Like, to to to paraphrase a a famous song about coding. You know, why don't you, write the, the damn login page yourself? It's it's a line in a song. And it's say kinda same thing. You get to the point where it's like, oh, I've I've dealt this really cool thing. Oh, I need a login page. I've developed this brilliant algorithm to do this amazing thing.

Gary [00:23:50]:
And now because it's just me, I'm also the one that's going to have to code the damn login page. And it's like, oh, no. I don't need to do that anymore. ChatGPT, give me a login page. And it's great. I could stick to the genius part and let Chat GPT do the damn login page.

Leo [00:24:05]:
It's funny. Yep.

Gary [00:24:06]:
Yeah. So cool. So yeah. We we actually when we ended last week's episode, you and I kept going. We had an interesting discussion on something that kinda tied back into, like, earlier I was, earlier this year, I went to New Zealand, and I was off grid, at least twice for kind of for back in different ways for backpacking trips. And of course, I often go on these backpacking trips and sometimes I'm kind of off grid, sometimes I'm not. And an interesting thing happened, on this trip. First is that my first backpacking trip I didn't realize I really wasn't off grid hardly at all.

Gary [00:24:49]:
I assumed going into the middle of nowhere New Zealand, around territory that looked with good reason like Mordor that I would not have connectivity. However, at the second place that I stayed, the second hut, I spotted, somebody standing on a hill nearby talking on their cell phone. I was like, I checked my cell phone and had no connection, but then walked up to where they were and noticed I had two bars. So, yeah, it wasn't exactly like a I had coverage everywhere, but it was a like, there were spotty coverage around Right.

Leo [00:25:26]:
That I

Gary [00:25:27]:
could get to. I was not completely off grid. The second place I went, which was in Fjordland, which is just very much, like, far away from any towns or anything like that, very mountainous. I knew famously it's very off grid, and there there definitely is nothing. Right? But I got reminded by you last week that I may have actually had satellite connectivity. Like, I may have been able to send it to SMS. I don't think so. I didn't try it, but because it was in New Zealand and I think it's only enabled in The US now, I don't think it would have worked for me there.

Gary [00:25:59]:
Though there's no real good reason why it wouldn't have, just like a contract hadn't had didn't have a signature for New Zealand or or whatever. But Our family,

Leo [00:26:08]:
Randy and Kit, who are on the ship living on the ship, they ran into exactly that. Yeah. For them, Starlink didn't work. Not because of any technological issue, but because of the country that they happen to be docked at hadn't signed up, hadn't signed a contract or hadn't allowed it or whatever, which I find both reassuring from a technology point of view that it would've worked

Gary [00:26:35]:
Yeah.

Leo [00:26:36]:
And frustrated that it's bureaucracy that gets in the way.

Gary [00:26:39]:
Sure. Sure. And and I think the next time I go, backpacking in New Zealand, it's probably very likely that SMS via satellite will be enabled. But even when even without that, one of the places I stayed, because the places are supposed to be really rustic and way out there, it had, solar panels and lights that were solar powered. So in other words, as soon as it got dark, the battery that was charged by the solar panels turned on the lights. There was also an emergency fire detection system that was electrically powered by the solar panels and the battery, And they had six USB outlets for people that wanted to charge up their devices also coming off that battery. And it occurred to me that it would not have been hard to actually put a Starlink,

Leo [00:27:26]:
Right.

Gary [00:27:27]:
Satellite dish there. Maybe they would have had upgraded their batteries and solar power, but it would not have been hard to actually do that and at least have coverage part of the day, if not, you know, during, like, daylight hours, if not, maybe all day. In fact, there are some private, lodges there because you could do that hike both, the in the public route, which is what I was on. But there's also a pay thousands of dollars and, and you could stay at these kind of luxury lodges that are that are there. And I never looked into it, but I was like, well, I would be surprised if actually they might have Starlink there. And that might be one of their things. Hey. Get Wi Fi in the evenings, you know.

Leo [00:28:06]:
Right.

Gary [00:28:06]:
And so the whole idea of going into the, you know, into the backcountry and being completely offline is almost gone. And, it is it's it that bothers me. And there are several different levels of this. There's like being online where you can actually participate online. Like you could stream video, you could look at social media, you could chat with people, you can do all your check your email, get work done. Right? That's like one level. Then Then you can

Leo [00:28:35]:
go down to the level where

Gary [00:28:36]:
your connection kinda sucks. Right? The one or two bars on your phone. You're not going to be streaming any video. You're not gonna be doing any, you know, any of that stuff. You are going to be like, maybe getting some text messages back and forth, but it's great for checking in. You you kinda feel connected. You're just, like, not going to work. Right? And then there's the, like, the the tiniest level.

Gary [00:28:58]:
The tiniest level would be, like, the satellite SMS, which they they've got the emergency stuff now or they've got the emergency stuff first. But going that is one, like, tiny bit of it. But then another tiny bit of it is just going to a lower level emergency, like checking in, I'm okay, or somebody telling you that, oh, there's something going on that you need to know about, even though you're out there in the backcountry. There's that level of things which is still to me feels like a really high level of connectivity. Even the the inverted part of that, the negative part of that, not getting a message when you could get a message

Leo [00:29:39]:
Right. Is a message.

Gary [00:29:40]:
Is a message. Yes. So, like, if knowing that if somebody could send me a SMS via satellite, but I haven't gotten anything Right. Tells me that there's no disaster, no emergency, or no incredibly good news. Hey. Our friends had the baby and you're the godfather. You know? There you don't get, like, you know, it's not always bad. Right? You just know there's nothing.

Gary [00:30:03]:
Even at at this at the end of this trip, I knew at the very very very end where you get picked up by a boat, there is a like, you should have a bar or two. So when I got there and I put my backpack down and I celebrated the end of the hike, I turned my phone on and I had, like, one message from my wife saying, I know you won't get this, but I hope you're having a great time and all that. Can't wait to talk to you when you get back. And that was it. That was the only message waiting for me.

Leo [00:30:28]:
Right.

Gary [00:30:28]:
Which gave me lots of information beyond that. Right? Because I knew there's nothing no word. No. Like, call immediately as soon as you are as soon as you get this. None of that was there. So I knew everything was okay. I was able to, like, relax for a few minutes, you know, and text back. It it really does create the like, there's something about going into the backcountry and being like, things may happen that I need to know about, but I won't.

Gary [00:30:54]:
Right. Like, so there is so I'm in kind of this Schrodinger's cat stasis thing where it doesn't matter. I might as well free that part of my brain up completely because there is absolutely nothing I can do to get that information. And then a little thing like SMS satellite would be like, no. That's gone now. Like, any moment I could get a message saying that there's an emergency.

Leo [00:31:20]:
You'll know whether the cat is dead or alive.

Gary [00:31:23]:
Right. And and the fact that I haven't gotten that message tells me that, everything's fine, which is also a weird feeling of connection, you know. Right. I I I don't know. It's interesting. And and we I think we're we're within a year or two at the end of that because the SMS messaging over satellite will be rolled out worldwide pretty much. I probably have already done with that here in The US. Like, if I go, camping in the mountains somewhere where there's no connectivity in Colorado, I would still have that SMS over satellite.

Leo [00:31:53]:
I don't think it's it's rolled out yet, at least not with any Ubiquiti. This is something that I do pay attention to because in my role as, for communications and by that, I mean radio communications, for the nonprofit that I help. We go out into the backcountry sometimes to rescue, companion animals that have have issues and so forth. We're often outside of both cell and other kinds of coverage. So we're paying very close attention to exactly what this kind of stuff might mean because for the search and rescue groups in general, be they animal or human, this could be big. Right? The ability to communicate back in real time or semi real time, is could make a huge difference in how we do our things and our ability to to do them effectively. There is existing technology that uses satellites. It's the the the product name is the inReach from Garmin, and it uses satellites.

Leo [00:32:51]:
I think it's using, the Iridium network, but I could be wrong. It's not use we know that it's not using, Starlink. But the the issue with it is simply that a single SMS message is usually thinking about a twenty to forty minute round trip, which means that you're not having a real conversation or a real time conversation, but you are still able to get a message, in and or out. So, anyway, yeah, it's it's it's exciting. It's interesting. I am looking forward to the time when, we can basically get rid of our inReaches because all of my folks in the field have

Gary [00:33:34]:
Right.

Leo [00:33:35]:
Mobile phones that are satellite SMS cable.

Gary [00:33:39]:
You should note, and I included the link, that this is definitely already active for iPhones. IOS 18 or later is required. IPhone 14, the the model number 14 or later, and it's in The US and Canada. And its, satellite, network is Globestar, and it is it has been active since iOS 18. Or I don't know if it was I think it might have been an update after iOS 18 came out, but it is definitely here. So I just have not tried it yet.

Leo [00:34:10]:
They are not restricting it to emergencies. You can have conversations.

Gary [00:34:15]:
Yep. This is the it was the change for that because it was previously available for emergencies only. K. So so there we go. So at some point this year, I will probably try it out while camping. I mean, I guess I could just try it out now in my own home. But, it would be probably I would really like to just try it out when I legitimately have no other connection.

Leo [00:34:37]:
I was gonna say you wanna confirm you got no bars. Yeah. And and see what happens.

Gary [00:34:41]:
I did last year before this came out. I did do the demo. Actually, it might have been. Whenever it came out, I did do the emergency demo. So the emergency demo actually uses the satellites, and it does everything just like you're really sending an emergency message. But it's and it it's even communicating with the satellite. And it's just that the messenger isn't going anywhere. And it was so it was a free, like, you could do it.

Gary [00:35:05]:
And I did that while camping. Well, I guess it was no. Yeah. Last year I did do it. I remember where I was. So it was two years ago or a year and a half approximately. I I did it, out in the wilderness. Did the it does a little satellite tracking.

Gary [00:35:18]:
It makes it simulate like you are contacting somebody and you just get a canned response from the, from Globestar saying that, you know, the message has been received. And if this were an actual emergency, we would forward it on or whatever.

Leo [00:35:32]:
Right.

Gary [00:35:33]:
Right. So so it will probably be probably be similar to doing that, except that I would actually, you know, say hello to my wife, and she'd say hello back and and all.

Leo [00:35:42]:
And, I'm assuming so if you're out in the field with that

Gary [00:35:48]:
Yeah. You have no

Leo [00:35:50]:
other connectivity but the satellite.

Gary [00:35:51]:
Yep.

Leo [00:35:52]:
Presumably, your phone is still periodically pinging the satellite anyway Because if your wife, for example, wanted to initiate the conversation

Gary [00:36:03]:
Mhmm.

Leo [00:36:04]:
The network would need to know where you are and how to reach you.

Gary [00:36:07]:
Yeah. It probably pings it, occasionally because I remember using it to send them a message, the test message. I basically what happens is because, you know, there's no big antenna on this thing to to to communicate. I had to hold it up, and at some point, there was a graphic on the screen that told me to point my iPhone, like, off at an angle. And then when I pointed it off at an angle, it kinda matched some lines up. And it was like, oh, good. Good connection right here. And and then I was able to play around with that.

Gary [00:36:38]:
And so it was communicating with the satellites and trying to get a good signal despite the fact the antennas aren't really optimized very well for that. Sure. So my thinking is for receiving messages, it probably just keeps trying and, you know, it may be a delay, five, ten minutes, an hour, whatever, and then it kind of, like, gets a little just hint that signals coming in and grabs the message and says, oh, you've got something. So that'll be interesting. That'll be a test I'll have to do as well. I'll have to have, whoever I'm testing within the other end, probably my wife, I'll have to have her maybe give her her time and say, try texting me at this time. Unless

Leo [00:37:18]:
you to, reach out to my folks who are out in the field and see what kind of capabilities they experience.

Gary [00:37:25]:
Very cool. It looks like it's using iMessage, which is Apple's messaging system. So Globestar is then going coordinating directly with iMessage. So Apple's got a link somewhere between Globestar and Apple servers, and that's how it's all working. Skipping SMS, skipping the Internet, skipping any mobile phone provider communication.

Leo [00:37:51]:
So this would be only iMessage recipients then as well. Both ends probably have to be iMessage.

Gary [00:37:57]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Leo [00:37:59]:
That's

Gary [00:38:00]:
Well, no no no. I I don't know. That's a good question. Like Yeah. So, yeah, the other person if the other person was using SMS, would it go through? Because there are there are certain ways. Like, for instance, on my Mac, I get SMS messages, but there's no cellular connection. My iPhone gets the SMS message and forwards it to my Mac.

Leo [00:38:27]:
Oh, yeah. I've got the same thing with with my app on the Google side. There's there's features Yeah. Built into the Google ecosystem to do that, but it all relies on the app running on the phone.

Gary [00:38:37]:
So, yeah, I don't, let's see if it says anything here. Just a quick search. Oh, yeah. It does. It no. It right there in the subhead, it says you could send iMessages or SMS messages.

Leo [00:38:49]:
Oh, there we go. Yep.

Gary [00:38:50]:
So it is it is, I guess it's just your iPhone needs to have iMessage. Right? Which would make sense.

Leo [00:38:56]:
Sure.

Gary [00:38:56]:
Like, you you you're set. You're using an iPhone. That's what's here. You've got iMessage turned on. It's gonna go GlobeStar to iMessage, and then iMessage will figure out, oh, this needs to go somehow over to the SMS system. I'll facilitate that.

Leo [00:39:12]:
Yep. Interesting. Cool. Alright. Mhmm. So that's cool. What else is cool? Yeah. I'm going to, jump in here.

Leo [00:39:22]:
I we've been watching Watson, which is, you know, a show on Paramount. It's a classic CBS, medical slash who done it kind of things. I mentioned it not because of the show itself, although it's a fine show and we enjoy watching it, but it just for some reason, it amazes me how much mileage the in the entertainment industry is getting out of Sherlock Holmes.

Gary [00:39:53]:
Yeah.

Leo [00:39:55]:
You know, Sherlock in this particular case doesn't exist. He's supposedly dead. Watson is doing other things, but Moriarty is still around and having an impact on everything. You have the idea. The reason that came to mind, though, is because we also, last night, started watching, Sherlock and Daughter. Mhmm. Completely different show. Completely different.

Leo [00:40:17]:
I mean, it's actually set in the eighteen nineties, I guess. It's on the CW. But it just it just amazes me. There's Sherlock here. There's Sherlock there. There's a little

Gary [00:40:28]:
bit of Sherlock. Enola Holmes is another Yeah. Yeah.

Leo [00:40:31]:
Yes. Enola Holmes is a great show. We enjoyed that quite a bit. So, anyway, I'm just gonna mention Watson for folks who are interested in Sherlock Holmes ish medical dramas, as it's set in modern time, and, it's fun to watch.

Gary [00:40:46]:
I'm gonna mention a book I just read. I don't know if you've ever heard of the Thursday Next series by Jasper Ford, but it was you that recommended to me, and I believe you had it as a Ain't It Cool maybe a couple years ago, the book, The Rook. Yes. And it's a series. Yes. So the funny thing is somebody else recommended to me this Thursday next series, and the first book is called the Heir Affair, Heir spelled as in Jane Eyre. And, the best way to describe it to you or to anybody that's read the Rook is imagine the Rook but even weirder. In it's a very similar, like, set in Britain, and there's supernatural stuff going on in modern day.

Gary [00:41:33]:
But, oh my goodness, there's time travel. There is, there are werewolves and vampires. And, there are the main thing is there are literary characters that can exist in the real world and real world characters that go into the book worlds from books. And it all takes place in an alternate version of our present day or a couple decades ago, where history is different as in the Crimea War never ended and is still going on. So everything from the Crimean War till now is completely different in terms of history.

Leo [00:42:14]:
Oh.

Gary [00:42:14]:
And popular culture is completely based around classic English literature. People are fans of things, not pop stars, not movie stars. They're fans of Shakespeare. They're fans of, Milton. They're fans of Wordsworth. Everybody is obsessed. Everybody's part of different societies. Every value of, like, cult of popular culture is classic English literature.

Gary [00:42:45]:
And it's and it's so it's very fascinating, and it's very weird, and it has a sharper sense of British humor than the Rook series. Lot more ridiculous things happen, but there's still mysteries. There's still action and all of that. And it's a very long series. It started way before the Rook. I think 2,001 is the first book, and there might be, like, eight or nine or 10 of them at this point. All and even though it does have a lot to do with literature, like, obviously, the book Jane Eyre plays into this first one a lot. I've never read Jane Eyre, but and the the author is very careful to make sure you don't have to.

Gary [00:43:20]:
Things will be explained

Leo [00:43:21]:
Glad to hear.

Gary [00:43:22]:
To you, and you'll get the idea. Okay. This is what happened in Jane De Aron. This is why it's relevant to this story, and this is all this stuff. Anyway, really good fun stuff. I, I have a new series that I guess I will occasionally be reading the next one of until I'm finished. Cool. Yeah.

Leo [00:43:39]:
In terms of self promotion, I'm gonna do something a little bit different this week. Rather than pick out a specific article, I'm sure you have a list like this yourself too. I find myself answering questions from people by pointing them at some of my existing articles. And some of those get pointed to significantly more often than others. They're kind of like I've always I've always thought of sites like Ask Leo as a glorified fact. Right? If there's there's frequently asked questions, although not all 5,000 of my articles have been asked frequently. This is kinda like the ones that I originally created a list for myself because I had to go copy the link so often. So it was just easier to have a list that I could copy it from.

Leo [00:44:28]:
And then I just turned it into a page. So my most referenced articles, I think, is a useful page for people to be aware of, maybe browse through and, see what kinds of things are, perhaps the most common answers to some of the most common questions that I get.

Gary [00:44:44]:
Cool. I'm gonna point, people to a video of mine, about customizing your Mac. It doesn't always have to be a complex thing. I just have a little list of, like, easy ways, little switches you can throw, basically, or quick things you can do to make your Mac look different than everybody

Leo [00:45:02]:
else's. It's funny. I I I don't know about you, but over the years, I've become less enamored with customization only because I end up redoing things so often that it's just not worth it anymore. Whereas I know certainly for people that are in it for the long haul and for a single installation that they use forever, it makes a total amount of sense, but I just got tired of doing it. Alrighty. Well, I think that wraps us up for another week. As always, thank you everyone for listening, and we will see you again or talk to you again real soon. Bye bye.

Leo [00:45:36]:
Bye.